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Iris Bravemount
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
86
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Posted - 2012.10.22 23:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sorry to spoil the general enthousiasm, but to me, this seems like a veeeeerry bad system.
Basically, what this means, is that the winning side will bathe in LP (and thus ISK) while the losing side has no chance to recover because whatever they do just yields 6.5 times less LP (and thus ISK) than when the opposing side does just the same thing.
The losing side will HAVE to bring PvE ships to plex, while the winning side can just farm those PvE ships and get ridiculous amounts of LP from defensive plexing (with no rats shooting them).
How can this even seem like a good idea? If the losing side has no way of getting back on its feet, FW is essentially dead.
PS: Didn't read all the 12 pages, sorry if I'm repeating what someone else said before.
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Iris Bravemount
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
86
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 00:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Yeah well.... you wanted consequences didn't you? Suck it up and run high sec missions like we used to back in the old days, sonny.  On a serious note, with the new system you can still keep yourself funded even at the lowest tier.
I am not in FW because I want to kill rats.
Even if you can sustain yourself on the losing side, what's the point of fighting if you KNOW that you can never win because your opponent just has 6.5 times your income?
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Iris Bravemount
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I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
86
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Posted - 2012.10.23 00:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Weitkunat wrote:Omnicide Incarnate wrote:So uh... I dont see anything thats going to make it any easier to make FW interesting when ur outnumbered 4 to 1 You should strive to outnumber your opponent in every engagement.
Oh well that's smart. Try to recruit people when the other guys can offer tier 5 LP rates and effortless reward...
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Iris Bravemount
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Posted - 2012.10.23 00:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Weitkunat wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:Weitkunat wrote:Omnicide Incarnate wrote:So uh... I dont see anything thats going to make it any easier to make FW interesting when ur outnumbered 4 to 1 You should strive to outnumber your opponent in every engagement. Oh well that's smart. Try to recruit people when the other guys can offer tier 5 LP rates and effortless reward... An outnumbered force can still defeat their enemy with proper discipline and force multipliers.
It's not even about winning fights, it's just that offensive plexing will take ages and must be done in PvE ships, while defensive plexing will still be done in 2 days old alts and in no time.
Add the bad LP yield for the losing side and the awesome LP yield for the winning side to this, and you have an unsolvable situation for the losing side.
The system itself is flawed, not the players in it (on neither side).
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Iris Bravemount
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Posted - 2012.10.23 09:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ok, I have spent the night thinking about this. Here are my conclusions.
Having fixed LP store prices should fix cash out spiking, which is a good thing.
AFK plexing sucks. Forcing players to kill the rats fixes it for offensive plexing. So this is a good thing.
As a consequence, defensive plexing will be a lot easier than offensive plexing, since it can (and will) still be done afk in a gunless frig. The suggested change to the formula, lowering the LP yield as system vulnerability is good. However, def plexing may still yield up to 75% the LP of offensive plexing, while not even requiring 50% the effort. This is a bad thing.
Having the winning side earning up 6.5 times the LP of the losing side makes it impossible for the losing side to recover. This is a bad thing.
Having an LP tax is frustrating and makes no sense from a "lore" perspective. This is a bad thing.
I have a short set of suggestions that may keep the above good things while fixing the above bad things:
First of all, replace this:
Quote:New system is:
Tier1: LP gains reduced by 50%
Tier2: LP gains staying the same
Tier3: LP gains increased by 75%
Tier4: LP gains increased by 150%
Tier5: LP gains increased by 225%
A heavy tax is applied to LP donations in higher tiers.
with this:
Quote:More reasonable system is:
Tier1: LP gains staying the same
Tier2: LP gains increased by 50%
Tier3: LP gains increased by 100%
Tier4: LP gains increased by 150%
Tier5: LP gains increased by 200%
A light tax is applied to LP donations in higher tiers.
And add the following rules:
Quote:LP multiplier for offensive plexing:
Tier1: LP gains increased by 225%
Tier2: LP gains increased by 125%
Tier3: LP gains increased by 50%
Tier4: LP gains staying the same
Tier5: LP gains decreased by 50%
LP multiplier for defensive plexing:
Tier1: LP gains decreased by 25%
Tier2: LP gains staying the same
Tier3: LP gains increased by 25%
Tier4: LP gains increased by 75%
Tier5: LP gains increased by 175%
This would make sense and create some more balance (and in a less artificial way than an LP tax).
"We're at warzone control t4? Ok guys, It's time to defend our stuff and go back to business (missions)."
"What? We're at t1? Guys, we really need to grab some land!"
Please acknowledge that you read this team game of drones and Hans, even if you don't agree.
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Iris Bravemount
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
90
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Posted - 2012.10.23 13:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Recruitment Specialist wrote:
Biggest ISK reward for minimum effort ... Tech moons
Really? Cool, Ima go get me a tech moon! Think a small corp or one-man operation can pull that off? Minimum effort - only after you've built up a strong fleet, taken the moon away from someone else, built your own defensive mining POS, and then held the space or at least been able to defend the POS long term. Some of that takes effort on a scale slightly above "minimal".
You forgot fuelling the deathstar. 
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Iris Bravemount
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Posted - 2012.10.23 13:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
SwissChris1 wrote:War Kitten wrote:Recruitment Specialist wrote:
Biggest ISK reward for minimum effort ... Tech moons
Really? Cool, Ima go get me a tech moon! Think a small corp or one-man operation can pull that off? Minimum effort - only after you've built up a strong fleet, taken the moon away from someone else, built your own defensive mining POS, and then held the space or at least been able to defend the POS long term. Some of that takes effort on a scale slightly above "minimal". Clearly you don't know how OPEC works and what a non aggression act stands for.
Guys, this is about FW. Please leave the tech debate out of this.
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Iris Bravemount
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I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
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Posted - 2012.10.23 18:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
And since we are at it? Why do we orbit stuff instead of shooting stuff? Defensive plexing could be replaced by repping. This would also foster teamwork, instead of one pilot per plex for maximizing LP. Payout could be based on % of damage inflicted or repaired (on the plex structure or on the attackers, so as not to forget our logi friends).
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Iris Bravemount
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Posted - 2012.10.23 19:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I can understand that in theory, one side earning more isk would lead to a dominant power group that cannot be defeated, but there's simply too much practical evidence to the contrary that has accumulated over the past few months.
Just about every assumption going into Inferno - "The Amarr militia will be nonexistent" "PvP will decline" "FW is dead" "There will only be two militias" "Station lockout prevents system flips" "Minmatar militia to rule them all" - has been disproven time and time again. Those of us working on improving the mechanics simply can't afford to purely speculate and must look at what's actually taking place when making adjustments.
I am however very concerned about the losing militias ability to afford everyday PvP ships, which is exactly why I suggested that the penalty for the losing militia be reduced, and prices returned to pre-inferno levels, as well as be fixed so that the underdog can cash out anytime, anywhere, and keep on fighting without having to wait for a tier spike that may never come. It should be remarkably easier to earn a viable income even at Tier 1 in the new system, and we're already seeing a surging comeback from the Amarr who have been flipping systems aggressively since the news of the patch was announced.
As far as I know - and have seen in game yesterday evening - Minmatar militia has almost undisputed domination over the warzone. When the patch was announced the Minmatar made an immediate tier 5 push the Amarr/Caldari could do very little against (I participated in the efforts to prevent it). I am not aware of any successful Amarr offensive in the last 24h (I slept and went to university though, so I may have missed something).
Quote:Remember also that the rats themselves are changing, any PvE ships needed to run existing content will only be temporary, as this is a patch to hold us over for the full content replacement. So I'm not particularly concerned about the ship fits being an issue here.
I can't see how the new rat AI will make PvE fits any less mandatory for clearing out larger plexes.
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Iris Bravemount
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Posted - 2012.10.23 19:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Audrey Koshka wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:I am not aware of any successful Amarr offensive in the last 24h (I slept and went to university though, so I may have missed something). We've been very busy bees. :) DotLan FacWar Map
Oh!
Good job!
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Iris Bravemount
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I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
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Posted - 2012.10.23 23:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ty Delaney wrote:No, he's talking about the fact that Retribution will introduce a new set of NPC rats all the plexes.
- Only one rat at a time.
- Presence of the rat stops the plex timer.
- Rat is sized appropriately for the plex in question, and active-tanks enough that a right-sized ship for the plex can kill it, but an undersized ship for the plex can't.
The net result of this should be:
- An element of the plex that (a) requires shooting but (b) won't require PvE-fit ships (once the new single-rat-at-a-time rats are in).
- An enemy presence that can't simply be ignored by speed-tanking, ungunned farmers.
- A counter to 1-week-old farming alts running majors in an ungunned Incursus.
- Minimal standings hits, since there will only be a handful of enemy ships to kill.
Man, I really wasn't up to date on all this info. Ok, this makes more sense. Is this a suggestion or has it been officially announced?
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Iris Bravemount
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
94
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Posted - 2012.10.24 07:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
I agree with Yuri Intaki on the fact that it does give too precise intel to the defender. With the beacons spawning and d-scan, it is easy enough to spot enemy plexers and there is no reason for the timer to be broadcasted accross system.
Intel should cost something.
D-scanning the plexes costs putting yourself at d-scan range of the plexer.
Checking the timer costs putting yourself on grid with the plexer.
This is not especially difficult or time-consuming. Removing those costs would just be an unfair advantage for the defenders (or pirates, or grievers, or ninjas).
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Iris Bravemount
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:I agree with Yuri Intaki on the fact that it does give too precise intel to the defender. With the beacons spawning and d-scan, it is easy enough to spot enemy plexers and there is no reason for the timer to be broadcasted accross system.
Intel should cost something.
D-scanning the plexes costs putting yourself at d-scan range of the plexer.
Checking the timer costs putting yourself on grid with the plexer.
This is not especially difficult or time-consuming. Removing those costs would just be an unfair advantage for the defenders (or pirates, or grievers, or ninjas). If you are worried about being within the enemies D-scan range, why would you not D-scan with a cloaked vessel? Also, after the buttons are moved you really won't be able to send a scout in to check the timer as he'll be in the enemy fleets lap.
So that's a reason to just give the intel away?
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